Season 3 Episode 6 - NORMS

Knowing the rules and being able to navigate them can be a big part of feeling safe in the city. Whether newly arrived or born and bred, we’ll hear from Stockholmers trying to figure out the norms, how to use them, and how to change them. Will they have to bend to Stockholm or will Stockholm bend to them?

Script

[Intro]

TANVIR 0:01

Volvovovvevilla, yeah, which is like Volvo, vovve, V-O-V-V-E, which is a dog, and then villa. Villa is a very like middle-class dream. Volvovovvevilla, which is like, you have all the three things. You have a family with a villa, then you have the Volvo, and then you have the dog.

JONAS 0:22

Stockholm is very- rules everywhere not that I'm wild I think Stockholm is too plaid and too much rules and too much structure for my taste.

[Intro Music]

Jess 0:49

Welcome to Here There Be Dragons. This season, I’m taking you to Stockholm. I’m your host, Jess Myers.

Episode 6: Norms

[Quotes] 1:04

“Brown glasses…”

“Trends are so clear, in Stockholm.”

“Beards on the guy…”

“Assimilationist…”

“90% are wearing the same jacket…”

“There's so much nerve everywhere and we look like soldiers.”

“Conservative people don't want to stand out.”

[Music]

Jess 1:30

When I’m traveling my mom has this little accusation for me. She says Jess you’re never happy to travel anywhere unless you can get an apartment and a part-time job. And honestly, that’s kind of true. I hate being a tourist. When I travel somewhere, what I like the most is trying to figure out what it’s like to just live there, really live there. Like what is it like to be a student here? To be someone’s co-worker? To be a regular at a neighborhood bar? What is it like to be just a normal unremarkable person in any random city? That’s what’s fun to me, taking a walk through what if...

Last year, I was trying to find out what a normal Stockholmer was. Anything people invited me to do, I did it. I went to clubs and parks. I cooked people dinner. I pushed people’s strollers. I hung out. What I learned is that in Stockholm, fitting in has quite a few rules.

For example, before I left New York I went to a swap meet and got the warmest coat I could find. A tomato red Woolrich winter coat. When I wore it around town, I noticed my mistake right away. Everyone else was in dark navy or black puffy down jackets, that swish swish swish swish is practically the city’s winter soundtrack. [“Can I… Sorry, can I just ask that you take off your ‘jacket’ because it makes a noise....”] I was a little too Moomins where I should have been Adidas. I stood out like a traffic light. Jess, my program administrator would say, you always bring a lot of color. Strike one.

Strike two? By Stockholm standards, I’m loud as hell. Showering after 10 pm. Laughing at top volume. Banging pots and pans in the communal kitchen. Generally living in the key of Brooklyn. All big no-nos I usually forgot.

And strike three? [Trying to speak Swedish] This one might be obvious but after a few months on Duolingo, I still didn’t speak Swedish. (un glas vatten?, jag alskar? Hej då? ), so at the grocery store (Kaffe? cardemomabulle?), in my building, at a thrift store, no one was buying me as a local…

In my quest to find the norm, I was sticking out most of the time. But in a way... it’s easier to see the rules if you’re always outside of them, even if that outside-ness is an uncomfortable place to be.

But knowing those rules and being able to navigate them can be a big part of feeling safe in the city. Whether newly arrived or born and bred, we’ll hear from Stockholmers trying to figure out the norms, how to use them, and how to change them. Will they have to bend to Stockholm or will Stockholm bend to them?

Here’s Iman, she’s a Stockholm-based fashion designer with an eye for trends in the city. She clocked my look right away.

IMAN 4:27

In Södermalm? it's like you're wearing now like round glasses…[Laugh] Chinos and with the pants where they have like shorter pants and beards on the guys and big coats on the women. And like… a more relaxed kind of clothes and a lot of people are inspired by the 20s 50s 60s and you can see that on their style. You know, oh this person must be from Södermalm where I worked before in Östermalm where I had the office there, people were more like not that social and everybody wears the same brands. So it was like I couldn't feel like inspired not from the boutiques not from anything. it's so different from Östermalm, Södermalm, the suburbs it's like you got three looks in stockholm. Three, not more than that. And it's few few people that got their own kind of style.

[Music]

JELENA 5:47

That's part of what I miss living in a really global city. I don't consider Stockholm being a global city.

Trends are so clear in Stockholm. I mean it just comes as waves, people have the same shoes the same hairstyles the same color of lipstick. It's just so trendy. Yeah. I miss that a lot from like living in a global city, I mean you have a lot of styles and the need to kind of express their identity but it's not as here where everybody goes in the same waves in Stockholm. And I think that's like also like one showing that it needs to grow not just in size but in acceptance. I think.

Jess 6:40

In my experience in Stockholm at bars, on the subway or at parties, I felt a certain reluctance to stand out. After living in New York for years, I’ve become pretty indifferent to strangeness.

Electric purple hair and leather chest harness gets on the train, must be a Tuesday morning commute.

IMAN 6:57

Before it was even worse, you could let go on this subway on the train, and like 90% are wearing the same jacket as you are. We look like soldiers. I don't know why I think it's smaller. And people tend to like lean to the safe choices. With so dark like eight months a year, I think it's it's just people don't want to stand out. And it's like, if you stand out through your clothes, you will get attention and people are not comfortable with that.

Jess 7:35

But I’m not the first to notice this lack of strangeness in Stockholm’s streets. So did Susan Sontag, an artist and critic Susan Sontag from the 60s and 70s:

Susan Sontag 7:47

“A High degree of national self-consciousness is partly what you would expect of a population with the highest per capita income in the world and a strong conviction of their country's moral superiority.”

Jess 7:58

When you’re certain everyone around you is doing the right thing, it’s easy to fear that you might be the one to make a wrong move. Why should you need to stand out when fitting in works for everyone else?

JELENA 8:08

It's a huge trust in like the political system and like in the authorities, and so on. And I think it's like the rebellious part. I mean, there were errors, of course, but just in general, I would say like people, there hasn't been any war. So like big catastrophes are political, like, Well, now, I hope soon now that we're getting these political parties like maybe I hope that it's going to be more like stronger, but like the rebellious kind of qualities in the nation kind of needs to get forward, I hope.

ANDREA 8:43

I learned about Stockholm outside of Stockholm, I had a lot of Swedish friends as well in New York, there were a lot of Swedes in New York, there's still a lot of Swedes in New York. I think I had a different idea of what Stockholm was than what it was in reality, from the people I met. In terms of the people I met were very lively and outgoing and slightly crazy, actually, even for a New Yorker, and then completely opposite to the people that I met. When I when we moved to Stockholm, I thought people were a lot more conservative and a lot more guarded than, than the people I'd met before.

MARION  9:24

I think Stockholm is an anxious city overall, very socially anxious, it's there's so much nerve everywhere and it's, you know, it's calm down.

[Music]

Jess 9:40

Stockholm is not so different from other big cities, where being successful means having the right job, the right clothes, and the right apartment. But as Marion said there is a certain anxiousness about standing out that can feel palpable. If you ride the T-bana enough, hang around in the city center, go around to a few art galleries you’ll pick up on the pattern pretty quickly: talk quietly and not to strangers, wear monochrome, stand on the right side of the escalator. Very well mannered.

Having the right look is one thing but what if the things that make you stand out aren’t really things you can change.

Whether it’s race or queerness or religion, what happens when it’s who you are that separates you from the crowd? And, in a culture that values sameness, what if this makes your daily life difficult?

Here’s Vanessa Barker, she’s a professor of sociology at Stockholm University who researches the creation of difference in Sweden.

VANESSA 10:37

For Sweden, from most of the 20th century, and now, they've had an assimilationist policy of immigration. So there was a very brief period where Sweden followed a multicultural idea, right, that would respect difference, understand difference.

But as an official policy, that was barely 10 years. And I think what's difficult for people who come to Sweden, right from whatever country is that it sort of says one thing at one side of its mouth, but the reality is actually very different.

So you will find nobody in the government, or even people on the street, who would say, this is an assimilationist country, where we expect you to follow exactly what we what we want and what we do. But that is what is actually expected. Right? So there's an assumption that people would naturally want to adopt Swedish values and adopt cultural practices. And they're not... It's not spoken. And so you get these kinds of conflicts, right, where there's sometimes... what is actually expected? What are the kind of cultural values?

Jess 11:46

So what then is the difference between integration and assimilation? As Vanessa said it gets fuzzy. Integration or a multicultural approach can be like a checklist: speak the language check, know the public holidays check, vote in elections check. Alright, you fit in and might even be able to bring elements of your own culture.

But assimilation is something a bit trickier. It’s more of a demand. Be like us. Just like us.

But who gets to be “the us”? Who gets to set the standard? And what happens if you just can’t be anything other than what you are?

IMAN 12:23

We have something in Sweden that came with the Social Democrats. And it's like, to be so normal as possible. Like, you go to work, you go home, you like, you don't stand out in anything you do. Like, you're even say your IDs, to your boss, you just do your shit. And then you go home. Like, you can't even like use your voice. If you use your voice, you are the pain in the ass, I'm sorry to use this kind of language. But it's easy, especially if you're a woman, if you are being visible or or like you're using your voice, you're just annoying. Until today. It is like... and if you are foreign, and you're Muslim. You're even a bigger pain in the ass.

VANESSA 13:19

But what are actually right, the Swedish values that we might think of as operating the society, and the in terms of the burden so most of it is upon right people who come new into the society, even though there's an idea that Sweden Sweden is somehow welcoming to all like, I think in practice, it doesn't really work out that way. And there is a lack of understanding about the integration or incorporation, right is a process or a two-way street, that societies change over time. So there's also this idea that somehow there's a lot of nostalgia for the past... on all sides, that somehow Sweden was of has some fixed past that many people long for and want to return to their somehow the idea that he was better in the past.

Jess 14:07

This question of assimilation and the way that the Swedish government has been unwilling to support immigrants that they perceive to be unassimilated, has been a tension in Sweden for decades.

In 1992, immigrants in Stockholm demanded action on a serial killer who is targeting Swedes of color. They also demanded that the government crackdown on racist organizations... At the time, Prime miniter Carl Bildt gave a garbled speech hiding behind bureaucracy... while never mentioning the word “racism”...

You can hear him talking to an angry town hall in Rinkeby, where he uses phrases like [Speech Clip] which means the dynamic of opposites and [Speech Clip] which means surface frictions, neither make much sense in Swedish or English. Before ending the meeting, the Immigration Minister at the time attempted to lead the crowd in singing We Shall Overcome .

No actions were promised, and no support was offered. 

The impulse towards assimilation is more than social. As Iman and Vanessa were saying it’s political as well. We’ve talked before about the safety net that the Swedish Democrats set up and how they meticulously measure what the standard citizen might need.

NAZEM 15:35

And when they built these working-class family, housing, it was like this amazing welfare state achievement, it provided a really high quality of standard housing to poor or middle-income people. It was scientifically really researched like the kitchens how big should the kitchens be the exact amount of light and space for children in the yards.

[Movie quote] 16:04 

“The City that provides commuter tickets for dogs on trains and buses. Stockholm is probably the most law-abiding town in Western Europe. A city with many laws and restrictions, performs protections against almost everything.”

Jess 16:22

What was excluded from that standard has just has much of an important as what was included. We saw in the Segregation episodes that as soon as public housing was used by people who didn’t quite fit the standard, all of a sudden, the safety net couldn’t quite catch everyone.

NAZEM 16:38

There's been a slummification process. Where as these neighborhoods have been inhabited by poorer and poorer residents since the 80s or so. And also to a larger extent, immigrants, so non-white Swedish people, the investments aimed to, you know, renovate, and rebuild, and adjust, some of them thought aspects of these environments have been lagging behind.

Jess 17:11

So what happens when you aren’t the ones who were planned for? What happens when you're a bit too brown, too queer, too religious to quite fit in?

PHILIP 17:20

I was only out queer kid in school. So it was quite unsafe. And I felt very looked upon

YASMIN 17:27

A couple of weeks ago one of the women said to me that she went for a walk and she lives in a central part of Södermalm.

PHILIP 17:36

That was more other people telling me that I did not belong, like quite explicitly wanting me not to be there.

YASMIN 17:43

And then she kind of... she gave off an embarrassed laugh where she mentioned I was the only one in hijab, going for a walk in that area.

PHILIP 17:53

it took a stand as a cricket quite early…

YASMIN 17:54

So that it was something that she had noticed and became aware of. And, you know, judging from her laugh, she was a bit self-conscious about that.

PHILIP 18:01

That's sort of where I took the area for myself and like my clothing into that they traveled from like being a punky kid and like fifth grade up to being like wearing tights and heels and tunics with like colors and sassy things.

MICHEAL 18:15

And it was... there's discrepancy of how I'm interacted with in some of these spaces that you're talking about some of these white spaces, I can feel that there's a difference when people are just addressing me without knowing who I am. As opposed to when I say okay, I'm a curator, I have a Ph.D.

PHILIP 18:31

When I was like an eighth grade, colored my hair and had like a mohawk in all different types of colors. And that was quite different from the way we're supposed to look in a sort of tougher otter city area, as a man.

MICHAEL 18:49

When I just entered like a seminar that people don't know me, they would look at me in a strange way. But as soon as they know who I am, oh, yeah, you belong.

PHILIP 18:58

And I would have quite planned out routes to like how I was going to go to school. I was quite like precise with what time I was going to take the train or what time I was in take the bus.

MICHEAL 19:08

What would have happened if I if I didn't have a title? Or if I didn't have a degree? I mean, how would that kind of play itself out?

PHILIP 19:15 

Today? I feel I felt safe walking inside of the mall because I know that there were going to be kids in certain areas outside of the mall where couldn't go. And other days it would be like okay, it's rainy and it's windy. So I go on the outside because they know that they're not gonna be hanging around there. So I really shifted how I walked to where, where I knew other people would be to jeopardize my safety.

Jess 19:42

Yasmin is a life coach who works with immigrant women who have experienced abuse. In her work, she has seen how her clients are marked out as different, even by the systems that are meant to support them

YASMIN 19:53

When we step into official spaces, offices, where there's a certain rule of conduct, there's a certain procedure that they're not familiar with, and where their interaction or their ability to interact is limited because they don't have the language.

There I noticed how they're met, how they're perceived, and how people interact with them. And I also notice how, how I'm perceived when I'm with them.

It's really interesting, like if I walk in on my own, because I've lived in Sweden, and Stockholm all my life, I know the social codes, and I know how to interact with someone, and I know how to signal my privilege. And in that way, leverage a certain power position for myself, when I walk in with these women, I try to use my privilege and my power position to leverage on behalf of them. But it's very interesting to see how the perception of them is reflected onto me.

So the person that we meet might assume that I've also been subjected to domestic violence, for example, because I am a woman of color and a black woman, I'm walking in with this black woman, or this other woman of color, or this woman in hijab. And we are placed in the same category.

So I sense a shift in how people interact with me when I move with them, and that gives me... just you know, that gives me a little window into what it's like for them to move around the space in the city.

Jess 21:30

More than the discomfort of not fitting in, many residents also feel the violent pressure to conform. When they are unable or unwilling to comply, public space can become a vulnerable and even dangerous place to be.

YASMEEN 21:45

My friend used to live in an area called Hondal, it is right around here [drawing]. I went to her place to stay there one night, it was like eleven o'clock, and the train station, the platform, was empty. I got off the train, and then I was tripped by somebody.

Like as I was walking ahead, somebody tripped me from the back, and I looked, I was so shocked. And then he just told me, hey you, like look where you're going. And I was like, but he's behind me. Like how am I supposed to look where I'm going? I'm going forward. So he was some old Swedish guy, and when we were going up the escalator, I told him that, why did he do that? I was like, are you a racist? Why are you doing that? He's like, ah, don't even address me you Muslim whore. That's what he called me. He was so angry.

I got so scared, I was like, this guy he might just do something, I need to like... I waited for him to leave the train station, I stood next to the counter where they sell the tickets, and I was just like I don't feel safe going out as long as he's around, so I just waited for him to disappear, stayed in the train station for like twenty minutes and then left.

I didn't even say anything. I was so shocked. I just stood there, I was like at least if something happens he can see. But I didn't like raise the alarm or say anything, I was just like... I didn't know to react. You know when you're in the situation, you don't really know what to do.

Yeah, so Hondal, I would say. I went there, so I started going there when I was going to visit my friend during the day, when people are around, because I had bad experience that time, like during the night.

The center is also every now and then you get things shouted at you. There was a guy who told me, who asked me why I was wearing a rag on my head. [Laughs] He was just like, why are you wearing a rag on your head? I was like, 'cause I want to. And it's not a rag, it's a scarf. So that was around the center.

And then, there was a woman one time on the train, she was screaming stuff at me, but I didn't know the language at that time, but there was a guy who stood between us, he was so angry, and he was like I'm so sorry, he started speaking Swedish, I'm like, I don't speak Swedish. And he was like I apologize, I'm glad you didn't understand what she's saying, and he's like, if you want we can change, what do you call... carts. I was like, ok. So I don't know what she said, but probably something horrible.

Jess 24:18

Not all instances of violence are as physical and in your face as shoving and name-calling. The subtle microaggressions that gatekeep public behavior can also be blaring signals that you don’t belong.

YASMEEN 24:33

The obvious right-in-your-face confrontational type of I don't want to call it negativity, hatred. I don't know what it is. That's just a few incidents. But like the more subtle... like not obvious type of prejudices that when I face all the time. Yeah, and then sometimes I question myself, I'm like, is it just in my head? Am I thinking about this the wrong way? Or is this really how this was meant to come out? You know? So I can give you an example. There was a time I went to the, to like a makeup shop. And I took a foundation. And I was like, Yeah, I want to take his foundation. And he put it on my skin and he's like, this, we'll just we'll just make it darker. You don't want to be darker. I was like, okay, he's taken a different color that is your tone a little bit lighter, because this will just make you more darker, dull. Okay. Yeah. So maybe I like to think he was saying it because he thought it would just make me I'm like, I saw the undertones of that.

Jess 25:51

In the interview for Stockholm, but also for Paris and New York, I found that as soon as a resident understands that they stand out in some way, possibly in a way that could make them vulnerable to unwanted attention, they find strategies to shield themselves from that scrutiny. One of the strategies Stockholmers, again especially Stockholmers of color, had was language. Knowing when to code-switch between different types of Swedish or even different languages, helped some residents control when to blend in and when to stand out.

YASMIN 26:25

Without a doubt, depending on who I'm talking to, if I'm going to the bank or if I'm having a meeting, or just a simple interaction with anyone in a position of power, and I want to assert myself or I want to communicate clearly that I'm someone that they need to respect that you use my words literally, I choose my big words I choose my articulate words. And you know, I choose classic old Swedish phrases just to like Flash all that privilege.

Well, very much my grammar, I think of like you know, how we express ourselves like I express myself in a more old school way, you can for example, say “ne” instead of “du”,  and “ne”  is the can be like plural form of you, which is “du”, singular form of you, or it can be a singular form of you, but very old school, not really used that much these days. More for more expressions to as a way to demand respect.

NESRIN 27:48

They use more slangs from other languages, especially from languages that you know a lot of people speak in those areas, like, Rinkyabe Svenska it's called, and that is seen as of course not high class, it's you know, bad.

You know, they get a specific image of you if you speak that. But in, you know, in the inner-city, it's more clean Swedish, as they say, Reean Svenska, it's, like the words they use is different expressions, it's more traditional Swedish language. And most of them, I was not familiar with when I grew up.

Jess 28:41

Rinkeby Svenska  is a form of Swedish slang popularized in immigrant neighborhoods like Rinkeby. It mixes English, Turkish, Arabic, and other languages into casual Swedish. In a short film called Rinkeby Svenska by Bahar Pars, a group of while advertising directors attempt to coerce a black Swedish actress into using this slang to appeal to immigrant audiences:

Here you can hear them reading off a list of slang:

[Reading quote]

And hear her discomfort:

NESRIN 29:41

Yeah. So, in the beginning of my life I talked a lot Rinkeby Svenska, but then I got used to talking like more Rikssvenska and I found that whenever, so when I like started at school in Vasastaden, I lost contact with all of my old friends from Tensta and I wanted to also, so I didn't hang much in Tensta after that. After like, you know, thirteen years old. But I found that whenever I wasn't, you know, I was walking home in Tensta, and I saw an old friend, or someone I knew, I would like switch to Rinkeby Svenska.

And talk with the R's a little bit harder for example, and that continued like many years, and it's like only recently, the last couple of years I haven't been switching that hard. I mean both feels comfortable, but I think like now the more like Rikssvenska is more comfortable for me, because I am so used to it, and, but when I switch to like maybe a more loose form of Swedish, it's not that hard as before.

[Music]

Jess 31:14

In the US, the term code-switching is used to describe the different strategies people may use to feel more comfortable or integrated in a social context. It’s a way of signally “Hey, I belong here, do not question it.” It’s things like wearing the heels in the corporate office that you snatch off as soon as you get in the elevator. It’s all the right honorifics you use with your teachers and immediately getting casual with your friends. It’s straitening your hair to go to school, and then wearing them out as soon as you get home.

These sound like small things but for some residents, usually those put in minority positions, the ability to code switch means the difference between getting that job or not, getting pulled aside by the police or not, being followed home in the street or not. While code-switching can offer safety it can also be exhausting. It means you are constantly on your toes and never fully relaxed.

That’s why it’s also important to residents to build their own codes that they can use no matter where they are or who they’re with.

Michael and Andrea are curators at the Ethnographic Museum in Stockholm and they both have Jamaican backgrounds. If you’re a subscriber, you’ll remember them from this week’s mini-episode. In their work at the Ethnographic Museum  they curated programs to discuss ethnicity, race, and identity in Sweden.

ANDREA 32:26

I think we are important for people who again the air quotes, “newer Swedes”, who are trying to find identity in being Swedish, in being of Sweden and not of Sweden. Because they are of Sweden, but they're always asked to identify themselves as being not of Sweden. So I think for the people who are trying to bridge that hybrid that gap, it's a place like this is very important for them. Because it roots them in a longer Swedish history, then the right wing will give them access to, and also it helps with them finding out with the otherness of themselves as well in relation to being a Swede.

MICHEAL 32:22

I think it's a very important point. For example, why we are using the term” Afro-Swedish” when we look at things like Afro-Swedish history and that means the history of people of African descent in Sweden. So why we're using the term Afro-Swedish is a direct challenge to the idea ethnic-Swedes, so ethnic-Swedes being white.

So that's kind of a challenge to that to actually say that there are people of African descent here who are Swedish that's why we're using that term. So that's kind of a politically conscious decision to do that.

Jess 33:57

I also wonder if the term “ethic-Swede” also opens up the opportunity to turn in ethnographic analysis on whiteness? So, if you are distinguishing yourself in a certain way sort of putting a boundary around, sort of what Swedish identity is, it also opens up the examined. And I wonder if that kind of conversation has also been raised at the museum here?

ANDREA 34:22

I think so and I think the conversation has been raised and I know I've asked the question if this is a museum of ethnography and the definition of ethnic, why is there nothing Swedish here? And that's when I got the thing that ok it's been, you know, separated, so yeah the historic museum and the national museum and all of.

So, the actual ethnic-Swede part of it is taken out of our museums, except maybe the Sami. And that's a whole other question as well when you start talking about this idea of who's Sweden, who's ethnic, and when did that begin and how do you define it and where is it going.

So, it's I think it's just a lot more questions than answers at the moment.

MICHEAL 35:10

I think the main problem for me with the term “ethic-Sweden” is that it kind of erases race, that is doesn't really include race or it tries to sort of take race out of the equation while still retaining it. So, I think it's a really dangerous and very sly use of a concept in a way, that I think it's extremely problematic.

Jess 35:37

In Stockholm I never quite fit in or even could fit in. But I had certain privileges that could guard me from exclusion. Being considered an international artist or living in the center of town, I could pass off many of my faux-pas as quirky and mysterious.

However, not everyone gets to have those options and a misstep can find some residents without the tools they need to live a secure life in the city.

But these standards do more than just restrict the individual and how they live. In the next episode, we’ll be looking into how social structures impact families in the city. What happens to the oldest, the youngest, and the most vulnerable among us, especially when we’re tied together as a unit. Join us next time for Family.

[Music]

Jess 36:59

If you liked this episode, you might enjoy episode 5 from our last season on Codes in Paris. We found that those two episodes really speak to each other.

We are produced with the generous support of the Graham Foundation for Advanced Studies in the fine arts and Konstnärsnämnden (The Swedish Arts Committee). Thank you to our senior producer Adélie Pojzman-Pontay and our team of graduate assistants from the architecture department at the Rhode Island School of Design: Bilal Ismail Ahmed, Daniel Choconta Guerrero, Kim Ayala, and Uthman Olowo. Fatou Camara consults for the show. Cory Jacobs does the music. And Adriene Lilly is our sound designer. Special thanks to Mimi AH-NO-WAHA for voicing Susan Sontag

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Okay, until next time, this has been Here There Be Dragons!

[OUTRO]

JASMINE 38:58

Is this it? Thank you very much, everybody this is Jasmine Gil yeah.

ANNA 39:02

Thank you for listening, this is Anna, hope you learned something about Sweden and how we live.

JASMINE 39:08

Oh!! re people going to hear this? Hahaha Oh my good I'm going to get popular- I'm already popular.